Was Sauron in control of Saruman?
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48 Comments
You are a great story teller. Thanks.
Ron > man
Do you think if Saruman got ahold of the One, if he'd try to give Sauron a fake, as he'd been practicing ringcraft?
That final point was one that I have not heard many mention. It was the 2 antagonists working for their own greed in opposition to one another that allowed the space for the heros to narrowly escape. Well done explaining their relationship so elegantly. I always enjoys these videos.
I think Sauron probably fell before Valinor. That he was Melkor’s inside agent to sabotage the Lamps. So Sauron knew Saruman in Almarien, not Valinor.
Oddly enouigh this was a facet of the Axis powers of WW2. Especially Germany and Japan. They all had agendas that sometimes worked against members of their own side. The German Molotov-Ribbentrop pact took Japan by surprise and annoyed them quite a bit because that non-aggression pact left Russia free to fight Japan who wanted to take Russia's pacific territories. Japan for its part didn't tell Germany anything about Pearl Harbor and itself made a peace treaty with Russia after German invaded Russia just so Germany could see how they liked it.
Manwë REALLY needs to stop letting Aulë taking on protégés.
YouTube, 8 hours is an unacceptable amount of time to withhold this from my feed
He got baited
I would probably never have come to that conclusion.
Honestly, I don't think either controlled the other? I think Saruman deferred to Sauron so he could perform his own experiments and find the ring for himself.
Would the modern equivalent be either Hitler and Mussolini, or Hitler and Tojo?
Aragorn sums up this sort of situation very well: "It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, and when they are cheating one another."
Who controlled "WHOM." Shame, Robert! I thought you would know that.
Good video! Though personally, I like to think Saruman was faithful to the Valar for longer than the White Council suspected in the aftermath of Saruman's downfall, and that he had been breeding Orcs for at least a century, so I can picture his use of the Orthanc Stone being, much, much earlier.
Your pardon. Mine opening criticism was because if El Profé had written the same title, he would've used "whom", being the philologist we all admire.
Why did Sauron need Celebrimbor to make the 16 rings? In his fair form, during the second age, wouldn't it have been easier for Sauron to create, and distribute, them on his own?
morgoth controlled both sauron and saruman. there is a morgothian element to saruman's creating of the uruk hai
In the films Sauron and Saruman’s relationship is much simplified. It is portrayed as a straightforward alliance, with no suggestion that Saruman is anything other than Sauron’s loyal servant.
It‘s actually wild that Aragorn and Denethor do a better job resisting Sauron‘s influence than Saruman, who is a Maia, i.e. theoretically more or less on par with Sauron.
Saruman thought he was playing Sauron. Sauron WAS playing Saruman.
This might seem like a really dumb question, but what powers do the rings of power actually bestow on those who wear them?
Maybe Gandalf's ring and presence helped Saruman think he could resist Sauron or rebel against him? Interesting video thnx
When you play the game of stones, you win or you die!
But wasn’t Sauron mimicked morgoth who had his fortress of Angband and a ring that encompasses all the world
In Deep Geek using LLMs to generate art? When did this start?
Perhaps Sauron uses the Palantiri as Shelob spins her webs. They ensnare those who happen upon by a thread . Than another, than another. With each communication Saurons manipulation and hold grows stronger.
That line about the Orthanc stone being "bent towards Barad-dur" would seem to me to suggest an alternative explanation other than simple good fortune for why Pippin ends up looking at Barad-dur when he picks up the Palantir.
Saruman is the Japan to Sauron's Germany
AI thumbnail. I wish I could block channels from appearing in my recommendations.
It's crazy that sauron and saruman had only been in contact for 18 years by lotr. that's such a short time from the pov of two immortal beings
As Saruman was only in contact with Sauron for 18 years, where did his orc army come from?
Had he been breeding and developing them already?
Did he do that in the 18 years?
Did he just recruit them from somewhere else?
I know there will be an answer to this, but I don’t know it
I always got the impression that Saruman was jealous of Gandalf's relationship with Galadriel
Who controlled whoM?
To my mind the ensnaring was more psychological than magical, I envision Sauron playing to Saruman's arrogance, ambition, and thirst for knowledge. Tempting him with secrets and knowledge that only he could provide. Misleading him in believing he could outplay or overcome him by his own abilities. That could be a leash all on it's only bring Saruman back again and again. Sauron seems to have a pattern of trying to seduce the already powerful or ambitious into actions that benefit him, and terrify those who are weak or more altruistic into inaction or submission.
Sauron's memories of Valinor faded?
I was just thinking that the Valar dont actually come off very well . Of the main 6 that came to middle earth . 5 wizards and Sauron only one wizard kept to his mission.The other 6 either failed or were evil. not good odds .
Hubris took both down.
Aulë has a terrible record as a mentor, it must be said
i wish in real life, control and manipulation would always backfire like this
“Whom”
Its would be like an arcangel going up against Lucifer. Lucifer is more powerful but flawed and an arcangel could outsmart him.
yeaah Sauron was always a great deceiver and manipulator, Morgoth put him in charge because he was very very useful with plotting and planning, as well as tricking the enemy and gaining new allies. morgoth was more a brute force kind of guy he needed a "politician" 🤣
it looks like Sauron convinced Saruman that basically fighting him was useless but also that domination was the best way to fix things, like you know, Sauron always thought. And so after his indoctrination Saruman tried to be like Sauron thinking that with the ring he would defeat Sauron, submit him and be a much much better ruler, powerful, wise and rational, not realizing one bit that he was already corrupted. I am pretty sure that Sauron would have managed to get the ring back in the end, no matter what.
Plus, knowing Sauron, even in the worst case scenario where Saruman takes the ring for himself, he would pretend to be reformed, his humble servant, flattering and plotting, and then stab him in the back retaking his own. Sauron is that kind of guy, we know him lol
Who controlled whom?
I have just realized my phone is a palantir
It's almost a bit of a tragedy then, when Saurman attempted to recruit Gandalf to his side. Saruman probably believed his and Gandalf's powers could "break the snare" over him, but Gandalf's belief in their mission broke any chance of that from happening.
Moral of the story: Sharing is Caring!
If only Saruman had listened to the advice of Admiral Ackbar.
Ringwraith: "My Lord, Saruman has been defeated."
Sauron: "Oh no. . . Anyway."
What if Saruman had done his job and never "turned to the darkside" as it were. Just been a good white wizard. How would it have changed Sauron's strategy if he had a united grey and white wizard to contend with.